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quiet_tiger) wrote2005-08-09 07:52 pm
Unofficial Beta, Feedback, and Critiques
Just some thoughts I've been kicking around.
By that I mean pointing out peoples' mistakes in fics through livejournal comments, rather than being someone chosen to actually help edit. When I'm comfortable with whose story I'm reading, I don't mind pointing out a typing error, or a punctuation problem, or a sentence that just doesn't make sense. Is that okay? The people I've done it with haven't seemed to mind.
I just don't know if there is any sort of etiquette for it, which is why I don't point out mistakes I see when the author is someone I don't know. I don't want to make someone else uncomfortable, or have someone dislike me because I pointed out a small error.
Personally, I have no problem with people correcting a mistake if they see it. I'd rather someone be kind enough to point out the error rather than let me leave the fic unfixed.
I also wouldn't ever do it without saying something nice about the fic, too. I usually won't bother pointing anything out unless I was going to give feedback, anyway. Is that bad, to see something and not let the author know? Out of a list of ten readers or more, I often seem to be the only person letting the author know about the error, and I can't believe that I'm the only one who noticed it. Am I just the only rude one, or the only one being helpful? I just don't know.
Is there any sort of unwritten rule about how this works? Or are most people receptive to strangers pointing out their flaws? Not that I mean major flaws, just in general something that they missed in a reread. I never know if it's okay to ask questions, either.
If I post a fic and you see a typo/grammar error/mispelling/awkward sentence you had to reread several times, please let me know! If you're reading what I posted, it means you're already cool, and it'd be nice if you could help me out if you catch something I missed. :)
Just what is the deal with lj feedback? I've gathered that the amount of feedback a person gets is directly proportional to the number of "Friends" a person has. It's just that... I don't know if that's fair, even if it is the way it is. Maybe "fair" isn't what I mean, maybe I mean "good" or "helpful."
Some stuff I've read as been horrible: POV issues (4/5 from Lex's perspective, then all of a sudden it's Clark's description of Lex), awfully out of character stuff, errors no one seemed to catch (no one I read regularly, btw). And yet, these fics have gotten tons of positive feedback. Am I overly critical, or are my standards too high for some reason, or are people just being nice, or do other people really think some of these fics are amazing and I'm absolutely insane?
I give feedback to authors I feel comfortable with (I know, without giving feedback how can you be comfortable enough to give feedback- long, arduous hours of reading before I feedback anything through lj. Off the SSA or something like that I have no problem with giving feedback to someone if I liked their story.). I also give feedback to people through lj if I don't know them if I really, really like their fic, which is when you're really supposed to give feedback, right?
This whole feedback thing confused me some times. And then there are the authors who beg for feedback in their notes/introductions. I'm not sure if that's cute or needy. I guess it depends on what's actually said.
</lj cut>
Feedback leads me into critiques. I've come to the opinion that these are two different things. A lot of feedback includes statements like "this was so great" or "squee!!" or whatever. This is great, it lets people know that people read the fic and enjoyed it enough to actually leave a comment, which no one has to do. But then there are some examples of feedback that actually critique,let people know what they liked about a fic, and what maybe doesn't work as well as the author maybe thinks it does. I try to do that, so people know what I actually liked about their fic, and that's where I would point out a typo if I caught one. If I've commented to you with a critique, unless it's something factual, it's just a suggestion for how it might work a little better.
But one example of feedback I saw totally trashed the person's fic, pointed out all sorts of things wrong with it (I can't say anything more specific because I'm not familiar enough with the fandom to know what was so wrong with it). The rest of the comments said how much the reader enjoyed the fic, all ignoring anything mentioned by the critiquer. They are all examples of feedback. They were just so different. Other than that one, I've never really seen an example of someone so totally saying something sucked. Do people just not comment if they think something is bad? I know I don't, because I don't want to hurt someone's feelings (though I do have to fight the urge to tell people to GET BETTER BETA READERS).
And I know no one wants to get negative feedback. That's no fun. But that leaves a critique, or constructive criticism, if you will. Is that good? I think it can be, if the suggestions are given tactfully, and are welcomed, preferably previously. But you never know whether or not you should do that to someone. If someone is begging for feedback, like, straining for it before they explode, than actually being honest and giving them a few hints may not be accepted easily.
But then again I don't know, I'm just musing aloud here, such as it is. The concept of feedback is just a whole puzzle within itself. To leave it, or not. Who do you leave it too? Are people being honest, or being nice? Yes, you can be both (I strive for that, I like to think), but lots of people give positive feedback to stuff that really isn't that good, and I've seen good fics with hardly any. I just think a list or critique of what people liked is really helpful, and it's fun to read through other peoples' comments and see what thoughts you share with other commenters.
And wtf is up with people who don't reply to the feedback they are given? I just can't imagine ignoring a kind comment someone gave me, unless what happens is I just happen to catch fics before the authors have time to get back to people, a lot of people don't. Maybe people are too busy. Maybe feedback isn't important to them. I dunno. Maybe I just think it's weird because I get so little feedback (most likely deserved) so every little bit means a lot to me (not that I'm fishing, it's just a fact), but kudos to those of you who respond to all the feedback you get, no matter how much it is. You're clearly doing something right. =)
I have a lot of time to think at work, but no opportunity to write out notes or anything and I'm too lazy and time-constricted to do it now, so I'm pretty sure this is all muddled and I come off sounding like a jackass. I apologize if that's the case. I just think it'd be interesting to do a study about who's giving feedback to whom when and why. *shrugs*
Huh, "Critiques" should have been a separate cut, but for some reason it didn't work. There's actually a transition for once in the text, though.
no subject
I've stated a number of times in my lj that I don't mind at all if someone calls me on a logic-bomb, because I go over my stuff myself most times. (and then post and then scream" how did I miss that?")
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But, just to provide examples, someone emailed me to tell me they liked my fic Culmination, didn't give me any details, and then launched into asking me for a favor. I don't know if she actually read it, or if because I was one of the few to recently post something on the SSA, she just asked me. Also, I posted something to VirginLex, went back to change an error, and by the time I did that, no longer than ten minutes, someone had already posted that they liked it. Just seemed weird to me, but I'm grateful for the comment.
Oh, I can't imagine being told anything I wrote sucked. I would definitely be crushed. Especially because while I have posted stuff that isn't great (really, really far from it) I don't think anything I've posted anywhere has been complete and utter crap. Needing a rewrite, most likely. And I really can't picture anyone being so callous as to just tell someone their fic was awful. Most people probably just don't bother commenting at all, which is what I expect, but I really saw one person post all these errors and suggestions about a really short fic, recommended all this reading (totally ignoring that the person maybe wanted to take a bit of their own spin on the characters), and I just felt awful for the poster.
Hehe, "logic-bomb." Why do you think nothing I write has a plot? ;) I'm the only person who goes over my stuff, too. The whole great thing about the Internet (and its bane as well) is that nothing anyone posts requires an editor or other gatekeeper, and I really like being able to take advantage of that. Having other people basically help me write something, as so many people seem to do, means the work isn't mine, and I want it to be mine, errors and logic-bombs included.
You do have a point, though. An extra set of eyes can be helpful sometimes, especially if you aren't sure where to take something.
Thanks for your input. :)
from a POV of a reader-only...
I know this is not helping those authors who want to improve their abilities or whatever, but I rather want to concentrate on things that i like.
and for grammar or minor inconsistencies , since English is not even my first language, I guess most of the time I do not see them. and if I see them, I do not care as long as it does not goes in the way of the storytelling.
for some authors not replying to my comments or FB emails, actually, I have to say, I normally do not expect that, its nice to have someone say thank you back when I practically just writing a few lines like "thanks for sharing your fic" or "I really like how you portraited this and that character". But I am not feeling insulted as a reader if the author is spending time on writing more rather than answering me.
Just what is the deal with lj feedback?
well, LJ is just like RL , IMO, its not about fairness.
...awfully out of character stuff...
for me, most of the time, such a thing as OOC does not pretty much exists, even more so, if the show itsself is fucking with their characters and have no consistency for them.
so much of the time, I just enjoy the "interpretation" of a character by the author.
ok, i already wrote too much, hope I could make my thoughts a little bit clear.
Re: from a POV of a reader-only...
Oh, I definitely understanding leaving stuff only for things you like. Hehe, with all I read, I can't even imagine leaving comments for all of it.
"I do not care as long as it does not goes in the way of the storytelling."
That's probably how most people feel, which is why they don't say anything. I'm just a bit neurotic and finicky and it bothers me to catch errors. And I hate when I catch stuff in my own works after I've already posted them somewhere, because it makes me feel stupid.
When people don't reply to feedback I give, it's not that I feel insulted, it's just... I don't know. My email account isn't always reliable, so I don't always know if something is received, anyway, and shrug it off. Like I said, I appreciate every little bit I get, and I like to let people know that if they were kind enough to post anything.
No consistency in characters, huh? Could we possibly by any chance be referring to Smallville, the show that continuity forgot, hehe? With OOC stuff, sometimes it's really fun reading little personality quirks that people give to existing characters, filling in blanks, and particularly with Smallville, the characters don't seem too developed anyway, so you can put in almost anything and have it be "accurate." But there was a House fic I read where House was thrilled that Wilson had an illegitimate child dropped on his doorstep and invited Wilson to let the baby live at House's apartment. It just seemed so strange, and not something that either of them would agree to. House just doesn't seem like the type to be wooed by a baby. But maybe he does to other people. I may not have even noticed except in the notes at the beginning the author apologized for a previous fic in which the characters were OOC.
And it's impossible to write too much here. I'm glad you posted. :)
And I think it takes a lot of willpower to create a livejournal and actually only keep it to make comments. :)
yep, clex is always cute :D
the burden of being an perfectionist as you are, I guess :)
... I appreciate every little bit I get, ...
now you made me wonder, did I ever wrote fb to you???
coz I love your culmination fic, its the reason why I friended to you, as far as I could remember??!
I had recced mkitty vid to my friends, and since it was so fitting perfect with your story, I had recced both together, sorry forgot to tell you about it: here it is what I wrote:
quote myself....
another one that I worship from Mkitty is
http://www.mkitty3.1accesshost.com/id17.htm
The World Is Not Enough
its one of my all time fav, my dream canon, Alexander and Kal take over the world.....
I even have a fic exactly matching this vid
http://www.geocities.com/quiettigersmallvilleslash/Culmination.html
summary: Clark and Lex just want to run away and rule the world together; picks up after Onyx. long , dark fic
....end quote.
yep, we are talking about SV, its my only active fandom (I occasionally look into HP and SW, and my first slash love Highlander, but beside those , there is nothing else, I am not interested in all the new shows like SGA, or OC or VM or whatever my friendslist is talking about).
No consistency in characters, huh? Could we possibly by any chance be referring to Smallville, the show that continuity forgot, hehe?
And I think it takes a lot of willpower to create a livejournal and actually only keep it to make comments. :)
well, I have lots of discipline (=willpower is the wrong word, I am addicted to chocolate :), and like I said, I am so busy in leaving (positive and probably therefore not useful) comments in other peoples LJ, that I really do not need my LJ except for the f-list.
I have it for two years now, and never wrote anything, I just have made one entry a week ago stating that it was opened for reading f-list purpose, coz I am starting to do a lot of reccing stuff, and some people might wander in and wondering why there is nothing...
Re: yep, clex is always cute :D
I just couldn't believe that it's Smallville canon that when Clark is without his inhibitions, he wants to run away with Lex, and while Lex is without his inhibitions, he wants to run away with Clark. The second I got the idea for the fic, I had to write it. I wrote the first 17 pages in less than 24 hours. I couldn't focus on anything else. When I got the idea for the Lana/loft scene, I literally could not sit and read what I was supposed to be reading, and got up and went to type it out. I had so much fun with the whole thing. :)
Mmmmmm, good video. I love them all schmoopy and sweet, but they're pretty hot when they're all evil, too. It's amazing the number of times on the show when they hug, and also when they give each other those side-long glances... so great. You can do so much with them.
Oh, Smallville. I stick to that and batslash stuff, as you probably know by now if you check my journal out even semi-regularly. ;) Every now and then I'll check out something related to Buffy, but I find those characters so developed already in the show that I don't see any reason to read fic.
Mmm, chocolate... no such thing as addiction. It is life.
And I didn't mean positive comments weren't useful. They're great for fostering community and maintaining or bolstering a person's self-esteem. I only meant to question those short comments such as merely saying "nice fic" or something along those lines. I bet it's great to receive 20 of those, and hopefully one day I'll know what it feels like to have that many people like a fic I post. But I think it's fun, too, to have a little more depth in comments. Something can be honest and positive and more substantial. And I love reading through the comments and seeing if I liked the same parts as other people, and what else people liked in the fic.
I'm not trying to say anything bad about anyone, and I'm sorry if that's what it sounds like. It was just me having a lot of time to think and be bored, and my mind wandered into the range of comments I've seen people leave to fics. I think it wouldbe awful if people just went around saying how bad fics are, or a certain fic, which is why I haven't gone into detail about what I'm referring to. Besides, anything is just my opinion, the same way what everyone else likes and dislikes is everyone else's opinion. It's great when people leave anything for others, just wondering why so much of it is vague. Just me being curious.
Hehe, I wondered, when I noticed you friended me and checked your journal to see what you were about, why there was only one entry. I remember seeing your name before, so I was confused as to why you hadn't written more, until I read what you had posted. :)
Geez, sorry this is so long.
Re: yep, clex is always cute :D
> who simply said she liked it, then asked me for a favor.
> But thanks for letting me know now, and reccing it to your friends. :)
you are very welcome, I thought it was a really good darkfic, and we have so very few in fandom, where Kal and Lex are ready to go on a killing spree, that I appreaciate every single fic with that topic that i can get.
your speed on writing this fics is AMAZING!!! 24 hours!!!
this thing about the girl asking you is the strangest thing I ever heard??
How can people just jump in and ask virtually strangers for some favor??
agree, she did FB, but that is what i think is the payment for you writing
*scratches head confusingly*
> Oh, Smallville. I stick to that and batslash stuff,...
and mainly stick to SV, around 90% of my fannish activities are in SV, I guess i am pretty much lost to other fandoms, I read my f-list raving about SGA, VM, House, OC and whatever, and I feel nothing for those fandoms.
> And I didn't mean positive comments weren't useful. They're great for fostering
> community and maintaining or bolstering a person's self-esteem.
And do not worry, I did not misunderstood you, I know you have said nowhere that positive comments are not useful. That was what "I" said :)
And its true, for some of my friends or new authors who have just started to write and I recently have befriended to, those comments are meant to encourage them to write more. Sometimes I tend to neglect "older" or "popular" authors in fandom when I write my comments, expecially when I see that there are already 20 other fans who have commented. Except of course when i am good friends with that author or when i am reason they are at LJ.
(you see, me being not an author/artist gives me LOTS of time to be a scout, and along my way through fandom I see lots of people at other SV places or in the yahoo clex groups or other blogging services like blog.com or bravenet.com or whatever, and who have no idea why they do not get feedback, even when their writing is good to IMO. those who have basically now idea how much fandom we have at LJ, so most of the time I offer them my help. Its just not their fault that livejournal.com was popular for fannish use from the beginning, and they did not know about it. But this is not me doing or offering help out of pity, I am NOT a charity person, if I help that person, then mainly because I like their writing, if they are here and others also like them, the better.
and it is my form of saying "thanks for sharing your fic" to those authors.
dianehc is one of those i help to set up into LJ, sv_slashbunny another one, there are a few more people that I am friends with, but they are not all ready to post at sv_fanfic or to present their fics to a larger audience coz they are still unsure about their writings.
I just have to work harder on them, but this counselling / coaching work is exhausting :D and I can only afford to do it, coz I am not a writer myself.
I may call myself Dianes No.1 minion currently , but she know there is always stiff competition, and we both are joking all the time that there are others to steal me away...:-)
I think my life as a minion/part-time cheerleader/reccing-ball is very funny...
Re: yep, clex is always cute :D
""
The problem I had with it was that she only said I think pretty much "I liked your fic Culmination," then launched into the favor. Which I agreed to help her with, then she never came to collect on it. I dunno what happened there.
As you can probably tell, I love House. I don't watch the other shows, though. Smallville just seems to lend itself to fannish activities. Particularly with the cute boys, of course. :)
""
Exactly. If someone has twenty people commenting, or I recognize their name as being popular in the fandom, I generally don't comment. I actually don't comment all too often in other peoples' journals unless I'm invited into it or really, really like what was posted. There's the whole "I don't know you" thing. That's part of the reason I got a journal in the first place, so that I could comment with a name, and people can read about me. I felt a little sleazy commenting anonymously, even though I did sign my name.
""
I was lucky, and a couple of people emailed me positive feedback for the first several stories I wrote, so I was a bit confident right off the bat. And I'm only confused or whatever when I don't get feedback for stuff I actually think is pretty good, especially when I know that crap on livejournal gets tons of positive comments.
But a lot of it really is popularity, which is why unknown people, or people who don't post at high-profile sites, may not get a lot of feedback (I've never even heard of bravenet). I don't have a lot of lj friends, or friends in the community. I did join lj partially to get my name out there more, though I haven't really written anything since I joined, other than Virgin!Lex stuff. My muse just took a vacation and hasn't come back or something. Though two stories are in the works.
And it's always good to let people know you like stuff. I have no problem emailing people if I like their stuff, usually, but leaving an lj comment is different somehow. Easier and quicker, yet once they have your lj name, that person potentially can read everything you write.
""
They should post anyway. If something isn't posted, it's never going to get read. Lj is okay, but not everyone is going to find everyone else's stuff. An archive is a good place because then people can search categories and find fics under different things, not caring about the author, just about the fic. My first fic makes no sense at all, it was just something I wanted to prove to myself that I could do at least a little coherently, and it badly needs a rewrite, but I posted it. No one gave me feedback once I posted to the SSA, but that's okay.
""
I definitely believe that. But it's good of you to do, and a lot of people need that kind of nudge. And as I've said, it's great getting feedback. I just get concerned when people beg for it in a note or something at the beginning of the fic. It makes people seem overly needy, like they need the validation or they're going to kill themselves. Which is terrible of course and I hope no one actually needs that kind of validation that badly. Lack of feedback doesn't mean a fic was bad, or that no one read it, you know? Just means that no one bothered to give feedback, which happens.
""
That is a terrible pun. I love it.
Re: yep, clex is always cute , part 2
I did find lj off-putting and cliquey when I was on the outside of it, it can be hard to get into.
I am also interested in understanding how to find ic on LJ. I don't have any idea who to befriend or how to find ongoing and completed fictions. If I post a fiction, how will anyone find my work to review it. All is confusing to me.
I opened an account but I have no idea what I'm supposed to do afterwards. That's why I never wanted to open one before. It all seemed kind of sophisticated, or snobish, or exclusive... I feel like an outcast there.
> But I think it's fun, too, to have a little more depth in comments. Something can > be honest and positive and more substantial.
> It's great when people leave anything for others, just > wondering why so much of it is vague. Just me being curious.
well, for once, the comment function of LJ makes it much more easier to just leave a few lines instead of in-depth analysis. another reason is, I know lots of friends, who have a rather large f-list, and I DO read my list (and I repeat myself, but I do not use my own LJ, so I have much more time in indulging other users entries :))
and some of them DO read, too, so the more you read the less time for long comments is left. Another reason I can think of is, if you are an author i am assuming you are also busy with your own writing, so if you already write and read others, you have no time at all to comment.
> until I read what you had posted. :)
I think you mean my latest entry about just having the LJ for reading f-list purpose???
> Geez, sorry this is so long.
do not worry, I always can reply with my own longness :D
Re: yep, clex is always cute , part 2
""
It's a challenge, honestly. Trying to find random fic is sometimes difficult. I try to search authors and then memories, usually people have stuff there. I also use posting places or communities mostly, like batfic and titans_together. Those, and sv_inquiry and whatever else, are good for fics. For people looking for fics, I reccomend looking at the communities people are a part of. For instance, Lacey is part of a whole ton of communities, and I found batfic through her, and titans_together from that. That's what I would tell my friends, anyway.
""
You post!! Or not, if you so desire. I guess I had practice because I have a personal website with a journal page, in addition to my SV Slash page, and this. One of my RL friends posts like once a month. I figured since I was gonna do it, I might as well talk about RL stuff. If I can make my RL sound interesting, more people might be inclined to read me, or comment, or whatever. My RL is pretty dull, though. ;) I also wanted a place to post short things that I don't want to post on the SSA. If people read them, fine, if they don't, fine. I'm gonna compile them eventually and post them all to the SSA at once.
""
People do seem to have f-lists that are like a hundred people long. I couldn't imagine trying to keep up with that many people, and try to comment for all of them, especially if people write fics (more especially if it's those daily-update wips). I wouldn't have time to do anything else! There are a couple of people I'd like to friend, but I haven't had the guts to ask them if it would be okay. What's ironic is that there were two people I used to check fairly regularly before I got my lj, but since I got it I've barely checked them at all. Weird.
""
Definitely. It pleases me greatly when people who do all of that actually comment in my journal. I never expect people to, not really, especially since my RL friends rarely do, so it's always a nice surprise when people comment to me. As for me, I just have no life, and none of my friends are home anymore, so my free time is spent reading, a little writing, and watching tv.
""
Yeah. Cleared it up. :)
And long is good, getting to know someone, why they do what they do. :) It was nice seeing your comments in my email. :)
sorry...
But I am interested in your offer, and again, I'm sorry, but I will reply as soon as possible. :)
do not worry..
good luck for you moving...